Interview with media historian, radio legend, and Rush champion, Dr. Donna Halper

Photo courtesy of Craig Renwick

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Interview excerpt from Rock-n-Roll Autopsy: Episode 129, “Did the Michael Stanley Band’s He Can’t Love You Kill Rock ‘n Roll?” with media historian and radio legend, Dr. Donna Halper.

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Rico: All right, yeah, this is Rico, of course. And with us once again is Mark from “Songs That Don't Suck.” 

Mark: Howdy. 

Rico: And my cohort, Scotty, is here, of course.

And this is part four of our “Did Cleveland Kill Rock” series. And if you remember, we talked about Alan Freed and the birth of rock 'n roll here in Cleveland. And we talked about the cool-ass Akron Jazz scene that a well-intentioned urban renewal project ruined.

And we also talked about the World Series of Rock that has been largely forgotten over the years. And tonight, we're going to talk about one of the most influential and celebrated and maybe a little controversial, too, radio stations in the history of rock 'n roll. That would be our beloved 100.7 WMMS here in Cleveland.

And to help us with that, from her unique perspective, would be Ph.D., Broadcast Hall of Fame inductee, author, music and broadcast historian, DJ. She's got so many feathers into her cap, she's gonna float away. 

Donna Halper: Queen of everything. Queen of everything.

Rico: That is right. It is Dr. Donna Halper. Welcome to the lab.

It is such a treat to have you here. I couldn't say that enough, actually.

Donna Halper: Well, my pleasure. And thank you for inviting me.

Rico: It's amazing having you here. So, I first wanted to, what I'm still trying to wrap my mind around is, you're from Massachusetts.

Donna Halper: Last time I checked.

Rico: So, what I'm having trouble with...

Donna Halper: I was born, they tell me, but I don't remember.

Rico: Right, right. So, in the late 70s, when you wound up in Cleveland, Cleveland wasn't exactly the shining beacon of hope for young professionals searching for fortune and fame. So how did you wind up in Cleveland? And how did you wind up at WMMS?

Donna Halper: Well, it was one of those fortuitous things. And I mean that sincerely, okay? I did not know what I was getting myself into.

And I'm not being sarcastic. You're talking to somebody who, at the time, had never really been out of New England, okay? I mean, yes, I had been out of New England to look at graduate school and stuff like that.

But, you know, in terms of like being a world traveler or something, I was a working-class kid from Boston. And I went to a commuter college. And, you know, I mean, the idea of like going to Cleveland, it's like, yeah, I knew where it was on a map, but it wasn't exactly on my bingo card.

If you know what I'm saying.

Rico: I'm so surprised to hear that.

Well, but the truth is neither was, you know, Houston, neither was Los Angeles. I didn't think about it. And the reason is that when I was in college, they still did not welcome girls, okay, in terms of being on the radio.

I was the first woman in the history of Northeastern University in Boston to ever be on the radio. And somehow the Republic did not fall, okay?

Mark: Imagine that.

Donna Halper: And yet guys stood outside my studio door waiting for me to make a mistake so that they could take me off the air and say, see, see what happens when you put a woman on the air? You know?

Rico: That's unbelievable.

Donna Halper: Because when I first went up as a freshman to try to get on the air, and I've told this story before, but I'll give you the short version. The short version is they said I couldn't be on the air because they didn't put girls on the air. So, I said, well, why don't you?

And they said, they don't sound good. And I said, well, how many have you had? And they said, none, they don't sound good.

So, if you've never had any on the air, how do you know they don't sound good? So, it took me four years to become the first in my senior year, okay? And then it took me another three to get a radio station to give me a chance.

Now, back then, if girls wanted to do like women's shows, everything was fine. If they wanted to do like cooking and recipes and house, you know, homemaking and nothing wrong with that. But I wanted to play the hits, okay?

And evidently there was a lot wrong with that because girls couldn't play the hits evidently. But that having been said, I worked behind the scenes for the ABC Radio Network. Nobody believes me when I tell them that until I hold up the pay stub.

I really did not get paid the big bucks for doing it. I was a writer. I was a script writer.

So, the guys got the credit because you heard their voice on the air, but we wrote the scripts, you know? You know that Barry Manilow song, I write the songs that, yeah, that was me. I wrote the songs, except in my case, it wasn't songs, it was scripts.

So, you know, I wrote the scripts for a bunch of radio shows, never got an ounce of credit except once a year. And again, that's not just, you know, well, there you go, Donna, you know, bitter, clean up on aisle four, I know I'm not. No, that wasn't me being bitter.

That was just like it was the way it was for all of us. The women very often did the behind-the-scenes stuff. Long story short, I finally got a gig at a small AM station back when AM still meant something.

Some of you may remember WGAR in Cleveland. I used to listen to it. It was a good little station.

WHK used to listen to it. It was a good little station, you know? So, there were all of these little AM stations and you could still get hired there.

The pay was crap, but I had a full-time gig as a teacher because that's what girls were all supposed to be. And I didn't want to be one, but I sure liked having the rent paid. So, you know, and I know what some of you were thinking, but Donna, you're a professor, different thing, okay?

When you're teaching older students, they want to be there. There's a different attitude. You can do research, this and that, but you know, teaching a bunch of six and seven-year-olds, not my dream.

Like I said, paying the rent, however, was my dream. So, I get this gig in the Boston Public Schools, and that's what's paying my salary, and that's what's paying my rent. But then I got the opportunity to work at this little AM after four years of trying.

And I just said, thank you. And we played a variety. We played folk music.

We played a little jazz. You know, whoever had a good record collection, you could play whatever you wanted, as long as it was your records. So, I brought in a lot of mine and I had a humongous collection of vinyl albums, still do.

And I played a lot of folk music and a lot of Canadian music. I loved imports. I mean, just anything I could get my hands on, OK?

And Ian and Sylvia, all this kind of stuff, just folk music was a big thing in Boston. A lot of those bands played in Boston. I got their records.

Donna, you're going on too long. Yes, but I'm a DJ. It's what I do.

So, one day, I'm minding my business, doing my radio show on this little radio station, WCAS, in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Long gone and hard to find. But I get a phone call.

And it's from someone I've never talked to. A guy by the name of John Gorman. And it turns out, John Gorman, if I remember correctly, was from Boston.

Now, he was, I think, from Southie, South Boston. But however you slice it, he was from Boston. And if my memory serves, he was home visiting relatives.

And of course, what does a radio person do when they're home? You know, it's a busman's holiday. You just kind of like, look for radio stations, because why wouldn't you?

What do chefs do when they're on holiday? They go to restaurants, you know? So, he was evidently scanning the radio dial.

He heard me. He evidently liked what he heard. And without ever meeting me, I got offered a job at WMMS in Cleveland.

I walked away from tenure in the Boston public schools to follow my dream and be on the radio. Now again, it wouldn't have mattered. Cleveland, you know, Pasca, Oklahoma, East Hudson plots.

I don't care. I just wanted to work in radio full-time because that's where my heart was. And that's how I wound up in Cleveland.

Aren't you sorry you asked?

Mark: No, not at all.

Rico: That's fascinating.

Mark: So, what was WMMS like back in the 70s? Like when you showed up?

Donna Halper: For me, it was absolutely awful.

Mark: In what ways?

Donna Halper: I've told this story before, and I always hesitate to tell it in Cleveland because again, it's going to sound like, are those grapes sour? Well, yes and no. Was I grateful to be there?

Yes. Did I find out that I wasn't getting equal pay? Yeah, that was a thing that happened.

I found out that I wasn't getting equal pay. I also found out that while my male counterpart, who had been music director before me, was never expected to do clerical work, I was, because of course, I'm female, and of course, all women are born knowing how to type. I have a whole bunch of autoimmune diseases.

I couldn't type in good times, okay? And over the years, they've gotten worse, so I really can't type. But the general manager expected that I would type the logs, take dictation, yada yada.

Oh, and by the same token, I could also be on the air, be the music director, do all this other stuff, and make about half what a guy would have made. So that didn't make me terribly happy. The other problem, they've never met me.

They were expecting, I think, a hippie chick. What they got was somebody who doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, doesn't do drugs, teaches Sunday school, and got in it for the music, but not for the lifestyle. And there was an awful lot of that stuff going on, okay?

There was an awful lot of... I would be lying to you if I said that I never saw drugs at WMMS. Oh, my friends, yes, I did.

Now, was I judgy about it? I don't know, okay? I can't read my own face.

I do not walk around with a mirror looking at what my expression is. But I'm sure, coming as I did from an environment where we didn't do any of that stuff, I mean, my father had maybe a beer once a year, you know? I mean, I just didn't grow up around a whole bunch of substances.

Sure, I knew they existed. Come on, I'm not quite as dumb as I seem, but I'm saying they weren't part of my life. I knew in the 60s that a lot of people were doing it.

I saw a lot of people doing it, but it wasn't the world I came from, nor was it the world I wanted to live in. And I am sure the first time that somebody pulled out a doobie in front of me or the first time that somebody did some coke or whatever, I'm sure I looked judgmental. I'm sure I did.

Did I mean it? I was scared. I really was.

That was not a world I was used to. I didn't know what to do. And I have the feeling, in fact, I know for a true fact, that I got a reputation around there as just being hard to get along with.

And, you know, nobody liked me. Everybody hated me. Everyone suggested that I go eat worms.

But the fact remained, I was there. They had hired me. They had brought me in to do a job.

I tried to do it as best I could. And then I discovered Rush. And suddenly, I became everybody's new best friend.

I was just the most wonderful person who ever lived. It was amazing. But it wasn't quite like that.

But it was kind of kind of close to that with others. Nah, they never liked me before. They don't like me today.

But the revisionist history has set in. And years later, they're all my best friends, every last one of them. And you know what?

That's fine. Over the years, I mean, there were a lot of misunderstandings back then. And I have the feeling that a lot of the folks that did a lot of that stuff don't do it anymore.

You know, it's kind of like Ringo Starr and the No No song. You know, no, no, no, no, I don't do that no more. I'm tired of waking up on the floor.

You know, I really do believe that there are some people who at the time it was like, this is who I am. And years later, nah, this is who I used to be. And I just, nah, nah.

And some of those folks have reached out to me over the years. A few of them have sort of semi-apologized. Others have just treated it like it never happened.

Down the memory hole it went. And we're all friends. Do we all talk to each other on a regular basis?

We never did in good times. But I really believe that there has been sort of a kind of a piece that is set in. And I mean, piece as in P-E-A-C-E.

It's like, why argue? Why rehash what happened in the past? I've got my version of what happened.

They've got their version of what happened. And in the end, it doesn't matter. We all survived.

Some of us didn't survive. But the vast majority of us did. And I'm very grateful for that.

And you know what? As tough as it was for someone like me to be at WMMS, I had a wonderful time in a lot of ways. I met a lot of famous people.

I met people that I never would have met otherwise. Okay? I mean, I met such a wide range of folks from, you know, Brian Ferry, Charlie, Daniels, Michael Stanley.

I mean, you name them, if they stopped by the station, I met them. Now, again, do I wish I got equal pay? Sure.

Do I wish that people were more understanding about the fact that I just didn't do some of that stuff that they were doing? Sure. Do I wish there weren't sexism in the industry back then?

Sure. Did some people treat me with, you know, what today would be considered sexist attitudes? Yep, absolutely.

And not just me, other women DJs, too, if you want to talk to them very quietly. But what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I'm still here, 77, still adorable, still out there just trying to make a difference.

And I will always be grateful for having been in Cleveland, for having worked in Cleveland. It really was the start of my broadcasting career. And the nearly two years that I spent there changed me in a multitude of ways.

So, you're really never going to hear me say a whole lot bad about it. I mean, you know, yes, it was a very different city. The sky was orange with pollution because of Republic Steel.

The mayor was quite a strange dude. We'll get to him some other day. But my point is that there were some wonderful restaurants.

There were some wonderful clubs. I remember seeing Jacques Brel is alive and well. I remember seeing all kinds of great movies, all kinds of live shows.

The experiences I had in Cleveland, I'm never going to have those kinds of experiences again, not because I'm old. Like I said, I'm still adorable. Maybe I will have some of those experiences.

But, you know, it's kind of thinking like the lyrics to MacArthur Park. Forgive me for doing that. But when you're a DJ, you think in terms of lyrics, you know that line about I don't think that I can take it because it took so long to bake it and I'll never have that recipe again.

I'll never be 27 years old, just out of Boston for the first time, meeting all kinds of celebrities, going places where I never thought I'd go, discovering a rock band, having my name on an album, having Geddy Lee do a shout out to me at the Agora. I still have my past for the Agora, for heaven's sake, okay? I mean, those experiences, I'm never gonna have those experiences again.

Sure, over the years, I've had different ones. But am I making any sense? I mean, there's some things that just, it's a time, it's a place, it's a moment, and I'll never have that recipe again.

It will never be the way it was in Cleveland when I was there, when WMMS was just starting to become the dominant station, having taken over from WNCR and some of the other stations, when AM was giving way to FM, and, you know, you could still go get your radio courses over at the Wixie School of Broadcasting. Remember Wixie? Oh, God.

But as I said, it was a period of transition. I was part of it. And when you're part of a transition, sometimes you get slapped, sometimes you get hugged, sometimes it's just indifference.

You never know what's going to happen, but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And what's interesting to me, gentlemen, is 50 years later, we're still talking about it.

Mark: You're a legend. You're in a corner of musical...

Donna Halper: I'm a legend in my spare time.

Mark: No, in a corner of musical history, you're a legend.

Donna Halper: And yet I've been written out of most of the WMMS history. Go look online at some of the photographs of people, even photographs that I'm in, and they don't mention me.

Rico: I have looked, and I noticed that you are conspicuously missing from a lot of the documentation. That is very true.

Donna Halper: And, you know, partier is going to party, I guess. And when you're not a partier, you know. But the other thing is that I think I was kind of an afterthought.

I mean, years later, people will, oh, we don't know what happened to her. Well, they've got this amazing thing called the internet. And I hear that some people use it.

And I hear they're able to find people on it. And over the years, people have gotten in touch, not necessarily from the station, although, like I said, Denny Sanders and I have kept in touch over the years, okay? I hear from John Gorman every now and then now, okay?

But there are other people, I'm never going to hear from them again, and it's fine. You know, life goes on. You go your separate ways.

There's a lot of people you have all worked with. And you're never going to talk to them again, not because there's anything there. It's just you had your moment, next.

Rico: Hey, and we're not talking to them. We're talking to you. So that's all that matters.

Donna Halper: But the bottom line is, as far as a lot of people at MMS went, it was sort of like, yeah, we never got along with her that well. She was kind of hard to get along with, next. And it's fine.

You know, I didn't mean to be hard to get along with. I want to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone I heartily offended. I didn't mean to heartily offend anyone.

I was just trying to find my way. No pun there on a rush song, but I was just finding my way.

Rico: Hey, sometimes when you're blazing trails, sometimes you get burnt a little bit on the way, but...

Donna Halper: Yep, some days you eat the bears, some days the bears eat you. Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug. Pick your favorite cliche.

Scott: I got to say that I'm actually, I was reading your blog, the year and the concert that changed my life, and you talked about being lonely in Cleveland. And I wondered if your memories of your time in Cleveland was bittersweet. And after what you had just said, I think they probably were, but I'm actually relieved because as a lifelong Northeast Ohioan, we all have a deep-seated inferiority complex, and I thought it was us.

Donna Halper: Nope, nope, nope. But also, anytime you go do something new, you always run the risk that some people will like it and some people won't like it. Some people will just be like, eww, you know, what are you doing here?

And other people will be like, hey, come on down. I don't want to leave the impression that everyone at WMMS treated me like crap. That would not be true.

On the other hand, I would say that everybody at WMMS, in many cases, they didn't know what to do with me. And the truth is I didn't necessarily know what to do with me because I didn't know what to do in this context. I'd never been in it before.

So, I just tried to make my own way the best I could and tried to be a good music director and tried to ask the powers that be to give me a raise someday so I could pay my bills. And just did the best I could to make the listeners happy. And I'll at some point tell you some other stories, but I've told about all the stories that I want to tell on the air at this point.

So, we'll just leave it at that.

Rico: Well, we'll take you up on that one for some off-air discussion. But speaking of making listeners happy.

Donna Halper: And there's nothing bad that happened here. It's just a simple matter of I have a rule, and mom raised me like this. If people are not around to defend themselves, I don't trash them.

No. It's not going to be, oh, you're going to go out there and trash them. It isn't even like that.

Rico: No, no.

Donna Halper: Perception is reality. I can listen to something, and I am sure I know what actually happened. And five other people can listen to the same thing.

And it's like, they're sure they know what happened. And all five of us could be right in our own ways, because we all bring to the party a little bit of who we are. And I'm certain that the way people perceived me and the way I perceived them, if we all met each other today, maybe we'd all perceive each other differently.

Rico: Oh, I'm sure. I mean, you know, people evolve and grow over time. And I'm sure that maybe things work a little bit differently.

Donna Halper: My conscience is clear about one thing. I tried my best to pick the right music for the station, to work with the people on the staff, to give them the kinds of music that they needed and wanted, to turn them on to some new music. They turned me on to some new music.

There was just a love of music at the station. And that's no BS, okay? You know how some people have this like legendary view of the, oh yeah, we were the station that played the new music.

We really were. We really were. And whether it was Kid Leo or Steve Lushbaugh or Denny or John or me or Betty or Matt the Kid, any of the people that worked there, we all loved music.

And we all tried to bring to the, you know, to the listeners the best kind of music we could. And we weren't restricted. I mean, it might be the sensational Alex Harvey Band.

It might be Michael Stanley. It might be Kraftwerk. You know, you never knew what you were going to hear.

And yes, we played some hits. We played Aerosmith, Dream On. We played Knights in White Satin.

Come on. You know, it wasn't all just weird stuff that went on for 13 minutes. And may I one more time bat down a rumor that if I see this on the Internet one more time, I think I will scream.

When I was in album rock radio, long songs were often jokingly called bathroom songs because whoever designed radio stations, designed them with the bathroom six miles down the road. And all radio was live. And when nature called and you have like a three-minute record and the bathroom, you know, that great creed and song, there's a bathroom on the right.

No, that's there's a bad moon on the rise. But the fact remains that if you were on the air at night, you were basically alone. And so, we music directors, whatever station I was at, we sort of picked out some bathroom songs, which were like they still had to be good songs, but they were longer.

And they allowed the DJ to answer the call of nature. But I repeatedly get, isn't it true you were in the restroom when you? Rush, I was looking for a long song.

Absolutely. But I was looking for a good song. And when I found Working Man, I got both.

It wasn't the longest song on the record, but it was a song that I thought would resonate with Cleveland. So yeah, there were long songs that were called bathroom songs, but that doesn't mean anyone was in the bathroom. I certainly was not, nor was Denny Sanders when we played the silly record.

We were standing there waiting to see if anybody would like it, because I believed they would. And of course, we get phone calls. Is that the new Led Zeppelin?

No, not the new Led Zeppelin . No, Canadian band, Rush. Oh, okay.

Will you play it again? So that was the thing that happened in the world. But the thing that didn't happen in the world was somebody being in the restroom.

Photo courtesy of Donna Halper

Mark: So, I mean, you're going to be forever entangled with Rush and their success, you know, breaking them really here in Cleveland. Are there any other artists during that two-year span when you were at WMMS that you also kind of like brought to Cleveland?

Donna Halper: And I just mentioned one, the sensational Alex Harvey Band. The sensational Alex Harvey Band was huge in Cleveland, okay? And Alex played the agora, and he and I hung backstage and talked for a while.

In fact, I am eternally embarrassed that I came with a friend of mine to watch the concert, completely forgot about her, and just hung out talking with Alex. And I apologize, Pat, if you're out there listening, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But the fact remains that we just hibbed about the music industry and he was just amazed that everybody at the Agora knew the words to all the songs.

They were singing along with Next. They were singing along with a song that Alex Harvey Band did called Anthem. And it's not the anthem that Rush did.

It was a different song. And it has lyrics in it that to this day, when I'm depressed, I like to listen to it. It's got lyrics in it.

Although it's true, I'm worried now, I won't be worried long. And at the end of the song, it kind of like trails out with them repeating the lyrics. And then there's bagpipes.

And everybody lit their lighters. And there was like this sea of lighters. And everyone was swaying back and forth singing.

I can't even talk about it because Alex Harvey died way too young from alcoholism. But that one night, he was clean and sober. And he was loved.

Because there were so many cities that didn't get the Alex Harvey Band. They got him in Los Angeles. They got him in Cleveland.

And he couldn't believe it. He said to me backstage, he was like all those people with their lighters just like singing along, just like chanting the words. He couldn't believe it.

And it was stuff like that that helped me get through. It was stuff like that that helped me get over. As bad as I might have felt, as lonely as whatever, if I could do something to help a musician feel appreciated in Cleveland.

And I wasn't the only one that felt this way. But I'm saying you asked about me, so I'll talk about me. And when we're done with that, let's talk about me.

But seriously, this was another example of what made WMMS special, because I had the freedom to get behind that band. I had the freedom to play it. I had the freedom to bring it down to the DJs and say, here's a couple of songs you really ought to pay attention to, etc.

And we did that with a lot of bands. So yeah, there were a number actually of bands that we played, that I played, that I wanted people to play. I was also known for being the chair of the Prisoners' Rights Project of the American Civil Liberties Union in Ohio.

I worked on helping to get the drug laws changed. When I was there, and this is not an urban legend, okay? When I was there, I believe you could get about as much time for possession as you could for manslaughter.

And that always seemed wrong to me somehow, and I was the perfect person to work on that with the ACLU because I don't do any of that stuff, okay? I had no horse in that race whatsoever, okay? It wasn't like, oh wow, I smoke weed, and therefore I want to see the laws change.

I don't, and I still wanted to see the laws change because it seemed outrageous to me. We were living in a very harsh, very judgmental world where marijuana was regarded the same as heroin. Now, even back then, I knew that was ridiculous, but that was the attitude, that was the law, and the ACLU worked to change it.

And I hosted the Prisoners' Rights Program. I wrote to a lot of prisoners. I encouraged them to, you know, try to change their lives.

I helped the social worker down at the Correctional Institution in Mansfield to run a prison radio station. I donated records to them. These are things I'm very proud of doing.

And I'm glad that I did them. And no, I'm not exaggerating. And no, I'm not making it up.

I can document every single bit of it. But it's not something that comes up in conversation all that much. Even back then, helping prisoners was not something that was terribly popular.

But at WMMS, we did that. We had a Prisoner Request show. It was not my show.

I just took it on as the next host. And after I left, someone else took it on. But I'm glad we did it.

I hope I changed some lives. And upward and onward.

Photo courtesy of Donna Halper

Scott: One thing we were wondering was WMMS is always credited with breaking artists. Of course, Rush, we frequently hear David Bowie, Bruce Springsteen, and others. And my question to you is does the Midwest in general receive too much or too little credit for breaking so many classic bands?

Donna Halper: Well, first of all, I'm going to answer as a media historian, okay? When you're a media historian, you're well aware that there's local history and there's national history, okay? And that in many cases, what's happening in one city, the folks are categorically not aware of what's happening somewhere else.

This was especially true in the era before the internet. I'm not making excuses. I'm saying like every major album rocker in the country sincerely believed that they were the first station to play insert name of band here, okay?

Now, it may very well be that they were the first station to play insert name of band here, but more likely there were a whole bunch of stations that at the same time either independently of each other or because of the attention of record promoters. And this is a part of the industry that I don't think the average person understands, not because they're stupid, but because again, just like all of the behind the scenes folks that wrote the scripts at ABC were completely nameless. Similarly, all of the folks that called up, and back in those days it was by telephone, that called up music directors and program directors and said, hey, I've got a great new band, and you know, you really ought to listen to it.

And then the local promoter would come by the radio station, hey, I've got a great new band, and you really ought to listen to it. Now, agreed most of us were professional, and if you've been a music director for a while, this is like politics. It's like every single song is a hit.

Every single speech I ever gave, millions of people attended. No, they really didn't. I think you had four at your last, you know.

But the truth is you tell the story enough times, you start believing it. So I believe there was a coordinated effort on the part of record promoters, national and local, to go to the major stations and some of the minor ones, and say, hey, you know, you really ought to listen to the Yaha Band. I mean, they're really good.

And sooner or later in a world where you're getting hundreds of new records in every month, the fact that somebody gave you a suggestion, fine, let me give it a listen. And you give it a listen, and oh my God, this is really a good band. Now, is that the only way?

Absolutely not. Sometimes it happens that like John Gorman goes home to Boston, here's a record, this actually happened, here's a record that a Boston station was playing, comes back to Cleveland and says, you know what, we ought to play this record. Or Bicey Versi, you know, somebody from Boston is making a trip to Pica City.

And this sort of thing happened all the time. So, did Cleveland get a lot of credit? Absolutely.

Did Cleveland deserve a lot of credit? Yes, it absolutely did. But was it the only market where this was happening?

No. Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Baltimore. I mean, every city had a major album rocker that broke new records.

I keep thinking of WMMR in Philadelphia. I keep thinking of Chome FM up in Montreal. I keep thinking of Kashi in St. Louis.

Every city had one. And we were very often looked at as a pioneering station with respect to new music, because this is the other factor, the trades. Every week, often on a Monday, but sometimes other days, you would get in these publications.

Now, again, this is before the Internet, so you're not just downloading it. You are getting in these magazines like Billboard, like Walrus, like The Hard Report, like The Gavin Report, you know, radio and records. There were a bunch of them.

And you'd look to see what your competitors in other cities were playing. And in some cases, like as the music director, I might recommend a particular song. Now John Gorman did the reporting to the trades.

It was something that that was his job and he wanted to do it. Okay, fine. So the rest of us made suggestions and then he would channel our suggestions to the trades.

And that's not unusual. Yes, I thought I should have been able to do it myself. So does every music director think they should have been able to do it themselves.

But some stations just didn't have it set up that way. Long story short, we would suggest songs that we thought were really good and John would report them. Pick a publication, Wallers.

Okay, go over, if you will, to worldradiohistory.com. worldradiohistory.com. And a very nice man named David Gleason, disclaimer, I donate to his site and I'm glad that I do.

He has digitized hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of magazines and newspapers related to radio and the music industry from 1900 to the present. So if you want to read Wallers, you can read some of those reports by the different stations about what they were playing back then. He doesn't have all of them, but he sure has a lot of them.

And it really is kind of like a trip down memory lane. Donna, this is a very long answer. Yeah, because it's not a simple thing.

I'd love to tell you. Oh, yes, we independently all by ourselves had a vision one night. And in many cases, yeah, that is kind of how it happened.

We heard a record just like I did with Rush. I thought, wow, working man, there's a song that will resonate with Cleveland while I get up at seven. Yeah, go to bed and got no time for living.

Yes, I'm working all the time. Perfect for a factory town, which is what Cleveland was. There were other songs like that.

There were songs that Kid Leo or that Steve Lushmore, Denny Sanders, John Gorman. Me, we heard a song and we thought, Oh, my God, they're going to love this in Cleveland. And then we would report it to the trades.

And the next thing we knew, they were playing it in Pittsburgh. Now, there's no reason to believe that maybe independently somebody in Pittsburgh wouldn't have figured this out for themselves because good records are good records. Maybe they got called by a record promoter, like I said.

Maybe somebody visited, like I said. Maybe it was all of these things. So the short answer, yes, we were ahead of the curve on a lot of records.

But the truth is, it was a time and a space where album rockers still had a lot of freedom. Media consolidation hadn't set in. There wasn't the sound of sameness, okay?

It wasn't, you know, what Geddy talks about and sings about in Spirit of Radio. That was about a station that he loved growing up. And later it got taken over by a corporate owner and it got turned into like the same ten songs over and over.

We didn't have that. Our management may not have paid us the big bucks, but they basically left us alone and let us do our jobs. And as long as we brought in listeners, as long as they could sell it and monetize it, they were perfectly happy with what we were up to.

So yeah, we had a lot of opportunity to break new records and we did. We had a lot of opportunity to be trendsetters and we were. Were we the only ones?

No. Were we even aware of other cities that might have been doing some of what we were doing? Yes, maybe no, but the reality is we were hyperlocal.

We were mainly concerned with what people in Canton and Akron and Painesville and, you know, places. I mean, what did they think? What they thought in Pittsburgh?

Yeah, whatever. Okay. What people thought in Cleveland, what they thought in Warrensville Heights, what they thought in Cleveland Heights, what they thought, ah, you know, that's what mattered.

Rico: Yeah, and those other stations didn't have the bitch and logo that WMMS has, so.

Mark: Which I believe you stole from somebody.

Donna Halper: I think so, yeah.

Rico: That's okay.

Donna Halper: You know, everybody borrowed from everybody. That's right.

Rico: Steal like an artist. Didn't somebody say we're all clever thieves, right?

Donna Halper: That's about it. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery until it happens to you, in which case, you just play people to them and you get very upset. But all joking aside, I don't know if I answered your question.

Mark: Absolutely.

Donna Halper: But just from an insider point of view, I'm very comfortable saying that we did break a lot of songs, but I'm also very comfortable saying that there were other cities where other stations believe that they broke a lot of songs. And you know what? Looking back on it and looking at the playlists, they did.

God bless them. And I'm really glad that there really was that live and local radio. So if you lived in Cleveland, you loved the Michael Stanley Band.

If you lived in Boston, you probably never heard of them. But in Cleveland, they could sell out an arena for heaven's sake. I mean, oh my God, Michael Stanley Band tickets.

But in some other city, it was like, who? And every city had those. And I think that's what made WMMS so unique.

The fact that we had our finger on the pulse of what our audience wanted. We didn't just react to them, but we really did take their tastes into account. And we introduced them to some great stuff.

But then we also listened to see if they thought this was great stuff too. And there was always that give and take. And that's something that I really liked about working in broadcasting at that time.

Rico: Awesome. Awesome.

Donna Halper: Is there anything you were expecting, hoping for, that you paid me big bucks to give you?

Mark: I'd say that answer to me was beyond expectations. And honestly, I love the fact that you come out as a music historian and a broadcasting historian. It's such a cool perspective to hear.

Rico: It's amazing.

Donna Halper: Because when you're in it, you don't see it as much. When it's happening to you, and I don't mean you, I mean anybody out there. When you are in the middle of it, it's very hard to have any perspective about it at all.

I found out later that there were a couple of other cities that Rush had played in. Now, they went absolutely nowhere with it. I mean, they were one of like 7,000 bands in a battle of the bands kind of thing, you know.

But in terms of accurately, oh, yes, we were the first person to ever play.

Well, maybe.

But we certainly were the first people to launch their career. And I'm not talking the Royal Wii. I'm talking like, yes, I got it started.

Yes, I was grateful that they dedicated two albums to me and put me in a documentary and this and that. That's wonderful. I am humbled.

But my point is that's what we did. We at WMMS, we took it very seriously. And it wasn't just Rush.

There were other records. We championed them. They went somewhere.

But at the time, I don't think we were thinking about how is this going to look for our legacy, you know? And 20 years from now, will people be writing in the trades that blah, blah, blah? I don't think so.

I think at the time we were just thinking, oh my God, this is a great song. What a privilege to play it. The audience is going to love this song and let's see if we can book these guys for a coffee break concert and let's see if we can get them into the agora and let's talk to Belkin and let you know this and that.

And all of these things, at the time, it was like one foot in front of the other and paydays on Friday. Five years from now, ten years from now, you're looking back on it and it's like, wow, I really did do some important stuff, didn't I? Not just me, Donna, but I'm saying, like, you're looking at it like, wow, I was a part of something.

And it was a unique time and it was so cool to be able to do it. And I don't know if years from now, people will think this was amazing. But yeah, it really was amazing at a time when radio really mattered.

So yeah, as a media historian, it's nice to put things in perspective. But like, when you guys talk about how important WMMS was, you're not entirely exaggerating. I just wanted to make sure that it got put into a context with WBCN in Boston, and Casey in St. Louis, and et cetera, et cetera, because they were all thinking the same thing.

You know, their music director was sitting there going, yep, nobody's more influential than we are. And in their city, they were right.

That's right.

Well, that's one of the reasons why we're doing this, is to make sure that those stories move forward and that people understand just where this came from and what happened during those time periods. We don't want that to be forgotten, which is, again, why we're talking to you right now for that purpose.

And if we're going to talk about songs that don't suck, Working Man. 

Mark: Facts.

Rico: You're not getting any argument from me.

Donna Halper: No, but I'm very serious. And the reason I always like to say that is because a lot of people are like, no, no, Rush began the day Neil joined the band. You know what?

God rest the soul of John Rutsey. He wasn't Neil. He never thought he needed to be Neil.

He was a three chord rock and roll kind of guy. You know, three chords in the truth. And this is what he knew.

This is what he did. Had he been healthier, he would have latched on with some other band for sure. Okay?

Sure thing. He was a very workman like drummer. And I mean that in the best of all possible ways.

You could always rely on him. And the fact that Rush wanted to go in a different direction, fine. But even Neil eventually embraced playing working men.

I mean, at first he played it because, well, the fans wanted it and he had just joined the band. But years later, they were still playing it. Of all the songs of theirs over the years that they played in concert, one of the few from the pre-Neil period, working men.

And every single time they tried to retire it, the fans wouldn't hear of it. Because a lot of people remember where they were when they heard that song. A lot of people still identify with it.

It has aged very nicely. To this day, when I hear the opening chords of that song, it takes me back to a time, to a place, to discovery, to excitement, and to the fact that an awful lot of people resonated with that song. As I knew they would.

So it seems to me that erasing that first album is a big mistake. Because that's how Rush got to be who they were. You know, you got to be able to crawl before you can walk.

And there were some flashes of brilliance on that record. And I will one more time, and I've done this 10,000 times, but my ethics insist that I do. If it were not for the kindness of Bob Roper up at A&M of Canada, A&M of Canada got a copy of that moon record.

And by the way, I still have mine and I will never part with it. I know you can't take it with you, but I will take mine with me. Bob Roper was a record promoter up in Canada.

Remember I told you in college radio, I played Canadian imports, fine with me. If it was a good song, I liked it. So I had friends that were Canadian record promoters and Bob Roper was one of them.

And his label passed on signing Rush. They thought Rush were not ready for primetime. Bob Roper could have taken that record and thrown it into the trash can.

And instead in an act of altruism, he sent it to me. He never got a finder's fee. I never got a finder's fee.

We weren't doing it for the finder's fee. He was doing it because he'd seen the band. And he thought they had some potential.

Yeah, they had some rough edges, but he thought they had potential. And he sent it to me with a note. I think there's something here.

My label's not going to sign them. Let me know what you think. And I opened it up, dropped the needle on Working Man, and I knew immediately.

And it was like, Oh my God, Roper's right. But seriously, none of it would have happened if Bob Roper hadn't decided to do a kindness, to do what we call a mitzvah, a positive action that makes the world a better place. You don't have to be Jewish to do a mitzvah.

Bob Roper is not Jewish, but he did a mitzvah, and he sent it to me. I listened. I liked it.

And here we are today. But none of it would have been possible without John Rutsey and without Bob Roper. So for those that are listening to this, every time you think your little act of kindness doesn't matter, you never know when it will.

And you don't do a mitzvah for the result. You do it because it's the right thing to do. People ask me all the time.

They still ask me, well, how much did you get paid for starting Rush Off? I didn't get paid a dime. You know what I got?

I got a 50 year friendship. I am still in touch with those people. Geddy Lee, when he was having his book tour, and some of you know this because you were there, he asked me, he and his manager, Meg, they asked me to come to Cleveland because that's where it all started.

And they flew me in. And I hosted the Q&A portion of the book tour. And I mean, when you think about it, like I said, they could have forgotten me.

I did what I did. In the industry, you do things for people, you never hear from them again. It's very transactional.

But Roper kept in touch. The guys in Rush kept in touch. I feel very fortunate.

I really do. Did everything turn out the way I wanted it to? No.

Did I get the respect that I think I should have gotten in some state? No, did not. But did I have an amazing time, meet amazing people, and still get to keep my own personal ethics?

So for those that say you have to sell out to be successful, horse pucky. The guys in Rush didn't sell out, and they were pretty successful. You can still be a good human being and make a difference.

Bob Rover made a difference. John Rutz made a difference. In my own way over the years, I've tried to make a difference.

You do in the show makes a difference, because you're giving people something to think about. It's not just the same old stuff. I applaud you for that.

Thank you.

Rico: No, thank you.

Mark: That was amazing. I can't think of a better way to end, honestly. That was just...

Rico: Listen, I have to say that, when you have... I, as a Rush fan, have been aware of the dynamic and the relationship between you and the guys from a fan's point of view. When you have...

In order to have something on a bucket list, there has to be like 5% feasibility there, and like 95% of it's never gonna happen. But in order for it to be a bucket list item, there has to be that 5%. And being able to talk to you would never have been on my bucket list because it was a 100% never going to happen.

So, I just want to say thank you for allowing me to create a bucket list item, and then thank you for allowing me to check it off, too. This has been superb. I'll never forget this.

Donna Halper: Now, see, I can't imagine me being on somebody's bucket list. I mean, seriously.

Rico: Oh, for sure. You've been on my bucket list for a long time.

Donna Halper: I mean, I was never the most popular person in the world. I just tried to live my ethics, and I tried to be a good human being. And if I touched some people's lives in some way, then I'm glad I did that.

On my bucket list, I still would like to own a radio station. I still believe in radio. I still love radio.

I miss radio every day of my life. And having just gotten fired from my job, I'm kind of looking around, seeing what my next opportunity is. So we shall see what the next thing is.

But I'm glad that I was able to be on your program, and I appreciate you wanting me to be on. I hope I was halfway interesting.

Mark: Oh, yes. This was fantastic. When I reached out to you, I was like, there's no way she's going to want to do this.

And when you were like, yeah, let's do it, I was like, oh, this is going to be fantastic. And you have blown out my expectations.

Donna Halper: Well, $10,000 was very... That was a selling point. That really was.

Rico: The check is in the mail, as they say.

Mark: It's on its way.

Donna Halper: That's what I was told.

Rico: It's on its way.

Donna Halper: But you know what? I've never taken money for an interview ever. Never have.

Nor would I. I mean, yeah, sure. If I were like a regular contributor to Name a Network, yes, I'd be paid for being a contributor to that network.

But the opportunity to just talk about my industry, talk about my friends, talk about the people I cared about, and talk about the part of me that remains grateful to Cleveland for having helped make me who I am today, that's something I welcome. And I thank you for that opportunity.

Rico: Oh my gosh, anytime. You can, man, if you're ever bored and want to come and talk music, just let me know. But listen, for anybody out there, it was important for us to, for those out there who don't understand, that they understand and know that you have done way more with yourself than just spin a working man record.

And so do what we do. Nobody reads Wikipedia better than we do here. So go visit Dr. Donna Halper's wiki page.

See all of the things that she's done. Read some of the things that she's written. The subject matter is absolutely fascinating.

Donna Halper: I have a blog. I have a website www.donahalper.com because what else would you call it? www.donahalper.com. I write about baseball. I write about media history. I write about Rush every now and then. I have a blog, as I said.

I've written six books, many, many articles. I'm the advocate for an adult with autism. I've been helping to take care of him for 40 years now.

In August, it will be 40 years. I've been married for 37 years. Can you imagine putting up with me for that long?

And, oh, did I tell you? I'm a cancer survivor, nine years. Okay, so I'm not even supposed to be here.

I'm not even supposed to be having this conversation. And even on my worst day, I am grateful to be alive.

Rico: Amen to that. Amen to that.

Donna Halper: Thank you, gentlemen. And yeah, people want to reach out to me. I always answer my emails, because mom raised me like that.

And there are a multitude of ways to get in touch, but just boogie over to the website, and there should be plenty of opportunity to, you know, jump over and email me. You can see my pictures from when I was inducted into the Massachusetts Broadcasters Hall of Fame. You can see some of the other stuff I've been up to, some Rush photographs, et cetera, and et cetera.

And thank you again for your kindness and your courtesy. And like the Grateful Dead said, lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been.

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Special thanks to Mark from “Songs That Don't Suck” for arranging the interview. You can check out his most excellent podcast here. Thank you, Mark. You rock.